tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post9043049423072616228..comments2024-01-10T17:36:15.040-07:00Comments on The Lippard Blog: Inside the CIA's secret prisonsLippardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16826768452963498005noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-45187237898347059732019-12-20T16:42:12.938-07:002019-12-20T16:42:12.938-07:00The Senate Intelligence Committee's report on ...The Senate Intelligence Committee's report on torture demonstrates pretty conclusively which side of the above debate was right. See this <a href="https://lippard.blogspot.com/2019/12/cia-torture-program.html" rel="nofollow">recent post</a>.Lippardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16826768452963498005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-57763561815061217852008-07-01T15:03:00.000-07:002008-07-01T15:03:00.000-07:00BTW, apparently Khalid El-Masri was kidnapped and ...BTW, apparently Khalid El-Masri was kidnapped and tortured because his name is close to that of suspected al Qaeda operative Khalid al-Masri.<BR/><BR/>I've <A HREF="http://lippard.blogspot.com/2008/07/more-on-cia-extraordinary-rendition.html" REL="nofollow">just posted more about El-Masri's case</A>.Lippardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16826768452963498005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-57146479801307856752007-08-18T10:53:00.000-07:002007-08-18T10:53:00.000-07:00Game, set, match, Jim.I predict we'll either see n...Game, set, match, Jim.<BR/><BR/>I predict we'll either see no response at all--or the other favorite tactic of all cornered idiots: the retreat to non sequitur.Einzigehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06406227217230727209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-32477492253752357812007-08-18T10:28:00.000-07:002007-08-18T10:28:00.000-07:00Penguin: You didn't answer my question. Do you en...Penguin: You didn't answer my question. Do you endorse the kidnapping and torture of innocent people because they happen to have the same name as terrorists? Is that acceptable collateral damage in your book?<BR/><BR/>You fail to distinguish between accused terrorists and actual terrorist. But I disagree with you even about treatment of actual terrorists--if the United States has a policy of engaging in torture, that is morally wrong and likely to produce bad consequences in response. Even more so if it's applied without any safeguards like judicial oversight.<BR/><BR/>You seem to be advocating an anything goes approach for the CIA with respect to anyone who is suspected of being a terrorist or supporter of terrorists, without any safeguards or evidential standards whatsoever. That is what leads to innocent people getting tortured, innocent people being held in prison for life without charge, and provides justification for attacks in response. Your view is morally reprehensible, and likely inconsistent--I suspect you would be outraged if any other country were to engage in similar practices against U.S. citizens, even if it followed exactly the pattern you propose as morally acceptable. Or do you support what Russia does to rebels in Chechnya?<BR/><BR/>To further complicate the picture, what do you think of the fact that the CIA has given monetary and military support to terrorist groups that have attacked other governments? Is that permissible? Or does that make it acceptable for those other governments to kidnap CIA agents, imprison them without charge, and torture them in response?Lippardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16826768452963498005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-42851511687225362192007-08-18T10:11:00.000-07:002007-08-18T10:11:00.000-07:00Exactly what percentage of Guantanamo prisoners ha...Exactly what percentage of Guantanamo prisoners have "killed innocent civilians [or] American service members"?<BR/><BR/>And what about the hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians who have been wounded and killed? Do their killers and torturers deserve a kiss on the cheek? Should we give a damn about how Iraqis treat them? Should it not concern us that it is turning the tide of the world against the US?Einzigehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06406227217230727209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-88146186323201435752007-08-18T10:02:00.000-07:002007-08-18T10:02:00.000-07:00The CIA doesn't just randomly decide to arrest peo...The CIA doesn't just randomly decide to arrest people they see on the street. They find those who have a bad record in the area of terrorism and those who they have good reason to believe are a threat to this nation's security. If you have a problem with the government keeping this country safe than you might have a few problems. You shouldn't give a damn about how the government treats terrorists, they don't deserve a kiss on the cheek and a pat on the back for killing innocent civilians and American service members.Ragin' Cajunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07750800339800276617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-19040675627090834302007-08-11T16:20:00.000-07:002007-08-11T16:20:00.000-07:00One more addition, Penguin: An example of a "blac...One more addition, Penguin: An example of a "black site" which became public in 2005 was the "Salt Pit" in Afghanistan, as the result of a lawsuit from Khalid El-Masri, a German citizen who was <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Salt_Pit" REL="nofollow">kidnapped from Macedonia and taken there by the CIA because he happened to have the same name as someone on the terrorist watch list</A>.<BR/><BR/>Do you endorse the kidnapping and torture of innocent people because they happen to have the same name as terrorists? Is that acceptable collateral damage in your book?Lippardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16826768452963498005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-39595942563466724062007-08-11T16:09:00.000-07:002007-08-11T16:09:00.000-07:00BTW, Penguin, here's an example of what would be r...BTW, Penguin, here's an example of what would be reasoned criticism of the article--making a case that the methods described actually produce accurate intelligence information (as opposed to fabricated confessions that tell the inquisitors whatever they seem to want to hear), and that they are also necessary in order to gain information needed to prevent major catastrophes. I'd also expect to see some argument that there are appropriate controls to prevent misuse (such as the documented cases of detention and torture of innocent people). But you attempt none of this--you give no argument for the necessity or sufficiency of these practices.Lippardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16826768452963498005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-57772475875565899062007-08-11T16:04:00.000-07:002007-08-11T16:04:00.000-07:00Penguin: You don't display any sign of having act...Penguin: You don't display any sign of having actually read what was posted. You also don't display much sign of understanding logic--your argument is an example of the false dilemma fallacy. There are not just two options--torture or Hilton Hotel guest conditions.<BR/><BR/>Likewise, your argument that this information hasn't been hidden is equally fallacious. The CIA <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site" REL="nofollow">"black sites"</A> have been operating for years, but the article I posted excerpts from was just published this month. Your argument amounts to a claim that anything public now was never hidden in the past, which is absurd.<BR/><BR/>You're welcome to post reasoned criticism here, but if your "heavy opposition" is going to continue to be this feeble, don't bother wasting your time and ours.Lippardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16826768452963498005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-48345164429686431002007-08-11T15:48:00.000-07:002007-08-11T15:48:00.000-07:00Penguin, did it ever occur to you that perhaps the...Penguin, did it ever occur to you that perhaps the reason we have a problem with this is because tomorrow they might decide that the "terrorist" is <B>you</B> or <B>me</B>? Or the little old lady down the street with one too many AK-47s in her gun safe?<BR/><BR/>In addition, your presumption that the CIA is only mistreating <B>the guilty</B> is staggeringly naive, given the level of incompetence constantly on display in every branch, level, and office of our government.Einzigehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06406227217230727209noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-59024107250387163472007-08-11T15:33:00.000-07:002007-08-11T15:33:00.000-07:00The CIA has reasons not to treat terrorists at the...The CIA has reasons not to treat terrorists at their prisons like guests at a Hilton hotel. And as for hiding it from the public, it can't be hidden if some liberal civilian bumpkin like you can find out about. The government isn't going to give those radical Islams milk and cookies for killing Soldiers, Marines, Airmen and Sailors of the United States of America. Next time you post a stupid article you copy and pasted off of some stupid democratic website, think again, because you'll always receive heavy opposition from Penguin.Ragin' Cajunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07750800339800276617noreply@blogger.com