tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post8074641252456104202..comments2024-01-10T17:36:15.040-07:00Comments on The Lippard Blog: Tinfoil hat brigade generates fear about InfragardLippardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16826768452963498005noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-53182053171819976242008-03-25T11:54:00.000-07:002008-03-25T11:54:00.000-07:00Jose: No, InfraGard is not for "these different b...Jose: No, InfraGard is not for "these different businesses and entities [to] report information that is considered subversive to their profits/cause and the FBI takes action based on their reports"--it's for them to report suspicious activity that is considered likely to be *criminal*.<BR/><BR/>There's a difference.Lippardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16826768452963498005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-10991824373270851792008-03-25T10:56:00.000-07:002008-03-25T10:56:00.000-07:00I think the journalist may be mistaken in what is ...I think the journalist may be mistaken in what is considered lethal force. The article goes into detail about how these different businesses and entities report information that is considered subversive to their profits/cause and the FBI takes action based on their reports. Giving authorization to "shoot to kill" most likely means that the Infragard member can pass information regarding a potential "terrorist" or subversive event and the FBI will use that as concrete evidence to pursue the accused. In effect Infragard is a network of informants with the FBI working as the executioner. If nothing else I think we can all agree that there is a large risk of abuse of the Infragard system to suppress important public information. You can bet your knickers that the Monsanto Co. has their card.<BR/><BR/>Remember that he only said "shoot to kill" in times of Marshall law. This may also be considered as the mode of control in a fascist coup where business and infrastructure becomes the eyes and ears of the dictatorship.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00939031447041939770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-89926370923950755442008-02-15T19:48:00.000-07:002008-02-15T19:48:00.000-07:00It is clearly fraudulent--it attributes actions to...It is clearly fraudulent--it attributes actions to InfraGard that have nothing to do with InfraGard. I already pointed out in a comment on your blog that it refers to "InfraGard officers" as though they are law enforcement officers and to "InfraGard contractors." It also is written as though "InfraGard officers" and "InfraGard contractors" are regularly visiting schools and conducting interviews.<BR/><BR/>It appears to me that it's a document from another source that has had "InfraGard" inserted into it or substituted for another word. It looks to me to be literally fabricated disinformation.Lippardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16826768452963498005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-21551791445943474942008-02-15T19:41:00.000-07:002008-02-15T19:41:00.000-07:00Jim, re: your comment on my post about Infragard. ...Jim, re: your comment on my post about Infragard. Please contact the author with your concerns as I have no idea. Virginia contacted me and asked me to post it and I copied it directly from her blog, links intact. (I took out the links just now.) Also went to her post and the links are not there any longer, so she took them out as well.<BR/><BR/>Calling it fraudulent without backing it up isn’t cool, though.DandelionSaladhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15269497929860885070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-27216893456081947082008-02-15T17:33:00.000-07:002008-02-15T17:33:00.000-07:00People have an overactive imagination. I'm also a ...People have an overactive imagination. I'm also a member of InfraGard. Sorry to spoil everyone's freak-out but it's certainly no conspiracy. The idea that martial law and use of force is discussed is silly and saying it is irresponsible. It's just not true. The boring truth is, it's a way for companies and the FBI to share information so we're not pants-down and unaware. It's as simple as that. Move along, nothing to see here.Lionelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16396840684701672561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-26047266379974390692008-02-13T20:36:00.000-07:002008-02-13T20:36:00.000-07:00I've deleted the post above from ELIA to keep her ...I've deleted the post above from <A HREF="http://www.blogger.com/profile/13525564621753123046" REL="nofollow">ELIA</A> to keep her email address from spammers. Here's the text minus the email address:<BR/><BR/>Mr. Lippard,<BR/><BR/>I am invovled in an internet broadcast on nowlive.com. My partner is interested in having you as a callin guest to talk about Infragard.<BR/><BR/>If you are interested please contact me via my email at [email address deleted]<BR/><BR/>February 11, 2008 10:50 AMLippardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16826768452963498005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-59363793532470011972008-02-13T13:13:00.000-07:002008-02-13T13:13:00.000-07:00stechi, ELIA: I'm not willing to become a media s...stechi, ELIA: I'm not willing to become a media spokesperson for or about InfraGard, but you're welcome to engage me in questions here at my blog or via email. I am speaking only for myself, not for InfraGard.Lippardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16826768452963498005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-44163466852278027622008-02-13T09:02:00.000-07:002008-02-13T09:02:00.000-07:00Jim,I am an Italian journalist writing an article ...Jim,<BR/>I am an Italian journalist writing an article on this Infragard issue and I would like to call you for a short talk.<BR/>If you're available, please write to me at a.ursic@peacereporter.net<BR/><BR/>Thanks<BR/>AlessandroAlessandrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02583652246973539603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-86593309819567850672008-02-11T10:39:00.000-07:002008-02-11T10:39:00.000-07:00Why have these guys never been sent to Guantanimo ...<B>Why have these guys never been sent to Guantanimo or some secret overseas rendition to make them talk and tell us what they know?</B><BR/><BR/>Well, at least you understand the purpose of legal limbo detention camps: to tell us what we already "know". Which, of course, has always been the purpose of "enhanced interrogation."Hume's Ghosthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13551684109760430351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-57445939310718659042008-02-10T16:26:00.000-07:002008-02-10T16:26:00.000-07:00Dilbertgeg: The answer to why those people aren't...Dilbertgeg: The answer to why those people aren't in Guantanamo for terrorist threats is that those statements do not constitute terrorist threats, but protected political speech. The question for me is why people who have said such things get elected and re-elected, and permitted to stay in positions of power and authority.<BR/><BR/>I think freedom of speech is still very strongly protected in the U.S. (though it has suffered some indignities from time to time, and broadcast TV and radio are still nonsensically being treated differently with heavier restrictions and controls that should be abolished), but the rest of the bill of rights has been eroded far more, by the war on drugs and the war on terror.Lippardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16826768452963498005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-59340316599307280372008-02-10T15:57:00.000-07:002008-02-10T15:57:00.000-07:00Dilbertgeg: I don't think there's any question th...Dilbertgeg: I don't think there's any question that the neo-cons used 9/11 to put into effect plans regarding the Middle East that they'd already had in their minds (and in some cases in detail on paper) long beforehand. James Mann's _Rise of the Vulcans_ is a good source on the subject, as is James Bamford's _A Pretext for War_.<BR/><BR/>Cavjam: I don't think I'm being hyperbolic--take a look at Google Blogs search for "InfraGard" to see what people have perceived Rothschild's article to be saying. It looks to me like the majority of blogs commenting on it are describing InfraGard as a Blackwater-style private paramilitary operation with licenses to kill, or "Bush's hit men," as one blog called it. *That*'s over-the-top, not my response.Lippardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16826768452963498005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-6777076509921472962008-02-10T15:47:00.000-07:002008-02-10T15:47:00.000-07:00Of the webpage I mention below, I'm going to updat...Of the webpage I mention below, I'm going to update it soon, to clarify and address some issues raised in another forum.<BR/><BR/>What is NOT being talked about sufficiently regarding Sept 11, is <BR/><BR/>a) the gang of neo-con propagandists on Fox (and Philly paper) who debated if a new, repeat Sept 11 attack would be *good* and *necessary* for America, and another Fox host who OPENLY stated WE NEED A NEW 9-11.<BR/><BR/>b) the number of relatively obscure (to the gen pub) Neo-Con opinion-makers, experts, strategists, etc. (not *only* PNAC), incl some Pentagon advisors who had special access to classified documents (Def Pol Bd), who stated <B>PRIOR to Sept 11</B> that we (they) NEEDED a major bloodbath on American soil, to launch their global wars (called by various terms, new Pearl Harbor, Pearl Harbor event, major security threat)<BR/><BR/>c) the fact that while such talk now constitutes a terrorist <B>threat</B> propagated by Fox/Murdoch, and there's been little debate and outrage on it, except on the web<BR/><BR/>and <BR/><BR/>the obvious fact that while such talk BEFORE 9-11 also constituted a <B>possible</B> terrorist threat, or <B>possible foreknowledge or other information</B>, to say the least, there has been <B>almost complete silence</B> about this from ALL sides of the Media, even including most "Troofers".<BR/><BR/>www.Takeoverworld.info/proterrorism.html<BR/>www.Takeoverworld.info<BR/><BR/>These guys who signed off on such statements actually represent the entire Neo-Conservative infrastructure (PNAC, AEI, Heritage, Family Security, and dozens more) which have a lot of overlap and interlink amongst them, and of course has a presence the Cabinet and WH, but similar statements were <B>also</B> published by the cofounder of the Tri-Lateral Commission (the Left??), good ol' Zbignew.<BR/><BR/>So there was a lot of ... what's that word ... synchronicity ... prior to Sept 11 about the NEED for this bloodbath to happen, with huge fortunes riding on it, as well as the <B>Fate of American Freedom and Prosperity and Hegemony as well as Global Peace</B>, at least thats how they explained it.<BR/><BR/><B>Why have these guys never been sent to Guantanimo or some secret overseas rendition to make them talk and tell us what they know? One of them actually FOUNDED Al-Qaeda a.k.a. the Islamic Radical Muj (<I>before</I> the Sovs invaded), and brags about it, and some of the others lobbied for Al-Qaeda in the B9-11 Era. <BR/><BR/>Oh, maybe I just answered my own question. ;-) </B><BR/><BR/>Well? Well? Do these published statements constitute "tinfoil"? No. Do questions about their relevance constitute tinfoil? Do questions about the near-TOTAL absence of these points in the MSM constitute tinfoil? Aren't they at least <I>interesting</I> and <I>juicy</I> questions?dilbertgeghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09789262821187351034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-12504172431060098572008-02-10T12:19:00.000-07:002008-02-10T12:19:00.000-07:00First, I'm impressed enough by your writing and ap...First, I'm impressed enough by your writing and apparent sincerity to have bookmarked your site. However...<BR/><BR/>I think you're categorization of this article as dictum of the "tinfoil hat brigade" is a bit hyperbolic. Granted the "permission to 'shoot to kill' in the event of martial law" bit doesn't wash (that right exists, even absent martial law, in all states with which I am familiar, providing it's in defense of life, limb or property, and would be prosecuted by the state not the feds anyway) but that bit is merely reported (and poorly analyzed) and the rest of the article seems fairly even-handed.<BR/><BR/>Also, I'm not so sure fear is what's generated, except perhaps for whistleblowers; I think it's wariness, a condition duly warranted any time private blocs form a seeming alliance with gummint, especially the enforcement and info-gathering branch. After all, the wedding of corporate interests and State power was Il Duce's dream, hardly an ambience to be desired in a republic. It also seems to create a perquisite class redolent of the "some are more equal than others" meme common in caste systems.<BR/><BR/>I won't even delve much into the context in which this program has expanded - that of a Cheneyworld in which Party is privilege, and secrecy and unchecked executive power is paramount.cavjamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08432022308089888205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-38214065074410535112008-02-10T07:54:00.000-07:002008-02-10T07:54:00.000-07:00John:I can't entirely blame you, given the abuses ...John:<BR/><BR/>I can't entirely blame you, given the abuses of the Bush administration, but let me point this out--the abuses of the Bush administration are easily documented. Where's the evidence for what is being claimed here? Even in Rothschild's own story, a second source who was present at the same conference denied the claim by the single source who asserted the "shoot to kill" capability. And the story isn't even consistent with the sorts of abuses of privatized paramilitary operations that we've seen. Blackwater's killings fell into a gap of law because they were defense contractors operating in an occupied country where the sovereign government is questionably sovereign because of the occupation. Here in the United States, there's no question about national sovereignty and in fact we have the opposite problem of an executive branch that is extending its powers beyond the Constitution.<BR/><BR/>I agree with you that TSA rules are absurd and mostly constitute "security theater"--I've written about that myself at this blog. But note that the TSA's function is one that was nationalized, not privatized. Again, that's not consistent with Rothschild's account.<BR/><BR/>Can you point to a law or presidential signing statement that mentions InfraGard by name or description and gives police powers to ordinary citizens who are members of such a group? Can you point to a plausible argument for why an information sharing organization most of whose members are not trained in police work would be given such powers? I expect that in coming days we will find out more about the conference that Rothschild referred to and what it was really about. My guess is that it was a conference on emergency or disaster response put on by DHS, and that Rothschild's source for the "shoot to kill" comment significantly misunderstood what he heard.<BR/><BR/>I'm thinking about doing a followup post about who actually does have a right to shoot to kill in the United States--in Arizona, the answer is that *any* citizen has the right to shoot to kill to defend their own life or property, in that the criminal code explicitly recognizes defense of life and residential property as a justification to threaten or use deadly force for protection. I also would include something about how police are often not criminally prosecuted for killings (and it's happening more and more often as a result of paramilitarization of police forces, which Radley Balko has written at length about), though many municipalities have citizens' review commissions for police shootings, which I fully endorse. The paramilitarization of police and the incarceration of millions of Americans for nonviolent drug offenses are *real* problems that deserve attention, outrage, and response.Lippardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16826768452963498005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-71359448841026452512008-02-10T05:17:00.000-07:002008-02-10T05:17:00.000-07:00Sir,Given the ridiculous levels of useless securit...Sir,<BR/><BR/>Given the ridiculous levels of useless security searches being conducted by our various security agencies at air terminals and borders (shoe searches, no more than 3 oz. of liquids on board, racial profiling, and invasive data searches on personal electronics), I really don't have much trouble giving credit to Mr. Rothchild's report. Honestly, if I thought I could trust the professionalism of people working on national security, it would be a different story for me. Unfortunately, I've held a government contractor job for 10 years, and observed firsthand the enormous waste the government is capable of, the number of inflated egos who feel their petty concerns must be prioritized over critical concerns, and the indifference to accomplishing the mission in fact versus accomplishing it on paper.<BR/><BR/>In the face of what I've seen in my personal experiences, as well as the numberless news stories of mistaken identities and gross ineptitudes of our security agencies across the land, I have trouble giving your 'balderdash' response much credit at all.<BR/><BR/>Sincerely,<BR/>John RomeroJohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05987825212295714723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-33389459880980523052008-02-08T20:19:00.000-07:002008-02-08T20:19:00.000-07:00Jim,Thanks for your in-depth analysis of this temp...Jim,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your in-depth analysis of this tempest in a teapot. <BR/><BR/>I've written up a <A HREF="http://alan.clegg.com/InfraGardProgressive" REL="nofollow">short response</A> as well, and linked to your article.<BR/><BR/>Alan Clegg<BR/>Eastern Carolina InfraGardAlan Clegghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01412293283571698565noreply@blogger.com