tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post7446984800834884472..comments2024-01-10T17:36:15.040-07:00Comments on The Lippard Blog: Marco Iacoboni on imitation and socialityLippardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16826768452963498005noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-11308929308776797912009-10-24T11:09:41.813-07:002009-10-24T11:09:41.813-07:00Wrong, Brian. There's a rather large differen...Wrong, Brian. There's a rather large difference. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observational_learning#Compared_to_Imitation<br /><br />Mirror neurons do not translate observed behaviors into actions. When a monkey's mirror neurons are firing due to observation, they never actively imitate the behavior.<br /><br />You should read this: http://drop.io/GrandDelusions/asset/hickok-2009-pdfMagic Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01218502680044614195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-69672972394833627102009-10-24T04:37:23.234-07:002009-10-24T04:37:23.234-07:00The operation of mirror neurons is, at core, trans...The operation of mirror neurons is, at core, translation of observed behaviors into actions and skills. How is observational learning not imitation? A distinction without a difference.Brian Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17895289104798325252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-10995577466782943642009-09-28T18:03:49.396-07:002009-09-28T18:03:49.396-07:00Brian, you're misunderstanding the argument. ...Brian, you're misunderstanding the argument. The argument Meltzoff (and Iacoboni) make is that <i>newborns</i> imitate...that it's a hard-wired behavior. Strong evidence against this interpretation of the Meltzoff data has been provided by the researcher I linked to in my previous comment. I don't think the baby in your video would be labeled as a newborn.<br /><br />I agree that monkeys can learn by observing (albeit, very rudimentary behaviors), but observational learning is not the same as imitation.Magic Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01218502680044614195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-88369798505485634472009-09-23T13:38:17.399-07:002009-09-23T13:38:17.399-07:00Existence proof:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=55...Existence proof:<br />http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=55d_1253677476<br /><br />If that's not mirroring in a human infant, Magic, I'd be curious just what you think it is!Brian Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17895289104798325252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-261681919589413792009-09-23T05:03:47.089-07:002009-09-23T05:03:47.089-07:00Magic, I feel your pain! Or not.
Ever reared a...Magic, I feel your pain! Or not. <br /><br />Ever reared a kid? They ape parents' emotions enthusiastically. Sometimes.<br /><br />And monkeys can learn by watching each other.Brian Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17895289104798325252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-16560169520303099012009-09-16T11:52:11.086-07:002009-09-16T11:52:11.086-07:00Hi Jim. More to come, but while I'm thinking ...Hi Jim. More to come, but while I'm thinking about it, I wanted to give you some information about the flaws in the Meltzoff work. The person who did most of the debunking (and who has received very little notoriety for it) is Susan S. Jones, now at Indiana University. Her relevant publications can be found here: http://www.indiana.edu/~infcomm/index_files/Page748.htm. Long story short, the only behavior that Meltzoff could get infants to imitate reliably (and which can be replicated) was the tongue protrusion. Unfortunately, infants protrude their tongues when given any sort of stimulation (including blinking lights and the overture from "The Barber of Seville"). Also, infants stop "imitating" the tongue protrusion a few months after birth...strange for something which is thought to be innate and hard-wired.Magic Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01218502680044614195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-56639371702608435592009-08-29T09:51:23.062-07:002009-08-29T09:51:23.062-07:00I think the answer in his presentation to the ques...I think the answer in his presentation to the question is based on the differences he described between the monkey and human results, as well as the TMS data.<br /><br />When you get a chance, can you post further critique, in particular the debunking of Meltzoff you mention?Lippardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16826768452963498005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15453937.post-29153628159758449922009-08-28T08:25:01.005-07:002009-08-28T08:25:01.005-07:00Hey, Jim. I haven't had a chance to read your...Hey, Jim. I haven't had a chance to read your post completely (leaving for Poland in just a few hours), but I did want to note that Iacoboni completely mischaracterized the argument that's made regarding the difficulty pinpointing mirror neurons in humans. It's not about human exceptionalism, and it's not anti-evolutionary sentiment. People like Iacoboni hypothesize that mirror neurons are the source of things like empathy, language, and imitation. Last I checked, monkeys suck at all of these things. If monkeys' mirror neuron systems (which HAVE been observed) do not produce these sorts of traits, why should we believe that they do in humans?<br /><br />On another small note, you know it's a dubious presentation when they discuss the Meltzoff infant imitation study as positive evidence of anything. It has been debunked on too many occasions to count.<br /><br />I'm nauseous...and not because I just had a root canal.Magic Tonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01218502680044614195noreply@blogger.com